Spanish sociologist, Manuel Castells, says that the conduct of the crisis in Brazil shows that there is hope to reconnect institutions and citizens
by Daniela Maria
The Spanish sociologist Manuel Castells, 68, was in Brazil attending a conference series when the protests for the reduction of tariffs by bus started, even shy, in São Paulo. One of today's leading experts in social movements in the age of the internet, not even him could imagine that the whole country would be taken by a wave of marches that would become the most important political manifestation of the Brazilian society in 20 years. "If they want real change, the critics on the internet are not enough. They must become visible, challenging the established order and force a dialogue, "said the sociologist. Castells has examined other similar movements, such as the Arab spring, Occupy, in the United States, Outraged (Indignados), in Spain, and now accompanies the defense from Taksim Square, in Turkey. With extensive and respected work on the role of new information and communication technologies, the sociologist says that the great strength of these movements is the absence of leaders and sees an exhaustion of the current model of representation. Author of 23 books, it throws in brief "Outrage and Hope-social movements in the age of the Internet" (Wharton School Publishing).
Castells was professor at the University of Berkeley, Calif., for 24 years. He currently lives in Barcelona, Spain, where he spoke to ISTO É (a Brazilian main stream magazine) by email, and is a professor at the Open University of Catalonia and the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, in the United States.
"The great strength of these movements is that they are spontaneous, free, a celebration of freedom.
The Occupy (OWS) left new values for Americans "
ISTOÉ (I.E) – You were in Brazil when the first protests occurred in São Paulo. Could imagine that they would take this ratio?
MANUEL CASTELLS- No one could. But what I imagined, and researched for several years, is that the crisis of political legitimacy and the ability to communicate via the internet and mobile devices leads to the possibility that spontaneous social movements arise at any time and in any place. Because there are always reasons for outrage everywhere.
I.E.-the Brazil has greatly reduced social inequality in recent years and has full employment. How to explain size discontent?
MANUEL CASTELLS-youth in São Paulo was explicit: "it's not just about cents, it's about our rights." It is a cry of "enough!" against corruption, arrogance, and sometimes the brutality of politicians and their police.
I.E.-it makes sense to continue in the streets if the problems of health and education cannot be resolved quickly, as the bus passes?
MANUEL CASTELLS-firstly, the movement wants to free transport, because it states that the right to mobility is a universal right. The transport problems that make life in cities a disgrace are the result of real estate speculation, which constructs the municipality irrationally, and local bad planning, because of the subservience of mayors and their staff to the interests of the real estate market, not of citizens. In addition, because of the mobilization, the President Dilma Rousseff is also proposing new investments in health and education. As it takes a long time to get results, it's time to get started quickly.
I.E.-the President Dilma acted properly to speak on TV to the nation, convene meetings with Governors, mayors and marchers to propose a Pact?
MANUEL CASTELLS-certainly, it is the first world leader watching, that listens to the demands of people on the streets. It showed that is a true democrat, but she's being stabbed in the back by traditional politicians. The statements of José Serra (former governor of São Paulo and leader of the opposition criticized the initiatives announced by the President) are typical of the lack of accountability of politicians and their misunderstanding about the right of people to decide. The political positions are not owned by politicians. They are paid by the citizens that elect. And citizens will remember who said what in this crisis when the election comes.
I.E.-how to compare the Brazilian with the movement that took place in the rest of the world?
MANUEL CASTELLS-there was a million people protesting in this way for weeks and months in countries around the world. In the United States, for example, more than a thousand cities were occupied between September 2011 and March 2012. The difference in Brazil is that a democratic President as Rousseff and a handful of truly democratic politicians, as Marina Silva, are accepting the right of citizens to express themselves outside the bureaucratic channels. This is the true meaning of the Brazilian Movement: it shows that there is still hope to reconnect the institutions and citizens, if there is good will on both sides.
ISTOÉ-what is crucial for the success of these movements summoned with the help of the internet?
MANUEL CASTELLS-The demands should reverberate for a large number of people, there shouldn´t be politicians involved and that there should be no leaders handling. People who feel strong support to each other as a network of individuals, not as masses that follow any flag. Each one is its own movement. Police brutality also helps to spread the movement through images on the internet broadcast by mobile phones.
ISTOÉ-why so many protests end up in looting and depredations? How do I prevent marginal could well take advantage of the movement?
MANUEL CASTELLS-there is violence and vandalism in society. It is impossible to prevent them, although the movements everywhere try to control them because they know that violence is the most destructive force of a social movement. Sometimes, in some countries, supported by the police provocateurs create violence to delegitimize the movement.
I.E.-How the police should act?
MANUEL CASTELLS-Intervene selectively, carefully, professionally, only against the bullies and violent groups. Never, ever raise lethal weapons, and if contain not to hit indiscriminately on peaceful demonstrators. The police is one of the reasons why people are protesting.
I.E.-the absence of leaders weakens the movement?
MANUEL CASTELLS-on the contrary, this is the force of the movement. Everyone is their own leader.
ISTOÉ-But this does not preclude the negotiation with the political elite?
MANUEL CASTELLS-no, the proof of this is that the President Dilma Rousseff met with some representatives of the movement.
ISTOÉ-what is the great strength and a great weakness of these movements?
MANUEL CASTELLS-the great strength is that they are spontaneous, free, festive, is a celebration of freedom. The weakness isn't theirs, the weakness are stupidity and arrogance of the political class that is insensitive to autonomous demands of citizens.
ISTOÉ-In Brazil, political parties were banned the demonstrations and there are those who see in it the danger of a coup. It makes sense that concern?
MANUEL CASTELLS-there is no danger of a coup d ' état. The corrupt and undemocratic are already in power: they are the political class.
I.E.-how to solve the crisis of representativeness of class politics?
MANUEL CASTELLS-With political reform, with a Constitutional Assembly and a referendum. The President Dilma Rousseff is absolutely right, but, in this sense, it will be destroyed by their own base.
ISTOÉ-these manifestations articulated through social networks require a new form of citizen participation in the decision-making process of the State? Which is?
MANUEL CASTELLS-Yes, this is the new emerging political participation form everywhere. I analyzed this world in my most recent book.
ISTOÉ-what is there in common between contemporary social movements?
MANUEL CASTELLS-internet Networks, presence in the urban space, lack of leadership, autonomy, freedom from fear, as well as coverage of the whole of society and not just one group. Largely the movements are led by youth and are looking for a new democracy.
I.E.-the movement Occupy, in the USA, was defeated by the arrival of winter. That legacy left?
MANUEL CASTELLS-Left new values, a new consciousness to most Americans.
I.E.-The Spanish Outraged (Indigados) was there some victory?
MANUEL CASTELLS-many victories, especially with regard to the right to mortgage and housing evictions and a new thorough understanding of democracy in most of the population.
I.E.-That Parallels do you see between the Turkish and Brazilian movement?
MANUEL CASTELLS-are very similar. They are also powerful, but Turkey has an Islamic fundamentalist Prime Minister semi-fascist, and Brazil has a truly democratic President. This makes all the difference.
ISTOÉ-believes that this wave of protests will spread to other countries in Latin America?
MANUEL CASTELLS-there is a strong student movement in Chile, and embryos arising in Colombia, Mexico and Uruguay.
ISTOÉ-Countries that control the internet, like China, are free of these manifestations?
MANUEL CASTELLS-no, this is an error of the Western press. There are many demonstrations in China, also organized on the internet, such as the Guangzhou City (in the South), last January, by freedom of the press (the editorial of a newspaper was censored and this motivated the first demonstrations for freedom of expression in China in decades. At least 12 people have been arrested, accused of subversion).
I.E.-How do you see the future?
MANUEL CASTELLS-I don't like to talk about the future, but I believe that it will be brighter now because companies are awakening through these social movements network.
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